Thursday, March 1, 2012

Dave Gier Obama apologizes for Quran burning, says that it made a big improvement in relations. Two of our guys get killed! If he didn't apologize, WHAT, they would've killed three? Oh, BTW the qurans had coded messages in them!

Tom Tallman between him and hilary. bullsh

Kelly Campbell Well wouldn't you be upset if they burned the bible?

Alison Bryant Johnson I would not like it but being a Christian we dont go kill people because of it.

Kelly Campbell I agree 100% with you, it's wrong to go kill someone, but those are extremeist....very angry extremists. And it was a low blow for us to pull that stunt.

Kelly Campbell It was like we just added fuel to the fire.

Donald Elliott Russ Some, Kelly. But I wouldn't kill anyone over it. Remember, they didn't even try to kill the people who inadvertently discarded the Korans -- they simply killed westerners because in their eyes, ALL infidels are guilty.

And as Dave said, the Korans were orignally confiscated because they were being used to smuggle inflammatory messages to prisoners -- which raises the question: Who was guilty of DELIBERATE desecration of those Korans?

Kelly, your feeble attempt at moral equivalence is insulting to all Christians.

Donald Elliott Russ “I agree 100% with you, it's wrong to go kill someone, but those are extremeist....”

First, Allison didn’t say that it’s always wrong to kill. We can all agree however that it’s always wrong to kill innocents. Second, are you saying that extremists are entitled to kill? Or just that we should yield to extremists?

Further, you apparently are under the impression that the soldiers did it to goad the Muslims. That impression is factually incorrect. But more fundamentally, how could you even assume that childish and counter-productive behavior by our soldiers? We would have been long gone from Afghanistan were it not for our policy of counter-insurgency which requires deference to their culture and their toxic faith.

American soldiers do not behave like that and anyone who thinks they do has been brainwashed by domestic America-haters.

Kelly Campbell With all respect, if I may correct you--*Quran.

I see your point, and I respect it. I just don't like seeing people put down the Islamic nation. The people that started this whole thing were extremist, I've studied Islam and what they stand for, it is nothing they portray. I'm not giving any excuse for them and their actions or even the Americans, I just want people to see both sides not just one.. Especially the one the media portrays. Media just writes about what they think will get the public talking. We never get the whole story. That's why I don't believe everything said. It's a terrible situation we are in and I'm glad President Obama apologized, but I don't agree with the killing. That is wrong, and I believe that. But, have you ever thought this exact, "smuggling messages" is going on right here in the U.S? Oh, it is. With the drug cartels/lords & the heads of gangs, how do you think they keep tabs with the outside. There's always a way. I know it's not like what's going on overseas, but people act as if Americans would never do that, that never happens over here. People need to get their noses out of the air. No wonder other nations don't like us. lol I just believe as a Christian this could be handled in a completely, more respectful manner. It was just a bad call on our part. And I'm sorry you are ashamed of my Christian views, if you don't consider me a Christian. I'm sorry about that too. I believe what I believe, it's between me and God. Not anyone else's place to judge my beliefs. I stand proud of the Men and Women helping protect our nation, God bless them because I for sure couldn't do it.

Alison Bryant Johnson Kelly i dont know u but i do appreciate you speaking your mind. Thats what is all about. I am not the most eloquent nor the most delicate so ill put it this way. If someone breaks into my house tonight i will set my dog on them and then pop them between the eyes with my pistol. And will sleep just fine. However if i went after everyone that insulted me, burned a bible, burned a flag or insulted the troops where would i be...as a human, a Christian or just a good old moral person. I know there are good fine Muslims out there that wouldnt harm a hair on anyones head....but lets agree that there are a lot of "them" that are just looking for an excuse to kill our troops. And our weak president apologizes. *stepping off the soap box*

Alison Bryant Johnson Oh and Kelly darlin never ever apologize for what you believe. Makes u look weak.

Kelly Campbell To argue with the point that OUR soliders would never do that, do you recall that photos of our men, urinating on dead bodies of our enemies? How would you like if someone peed on your son's body? Yes, they are our enemies, but they are someone's loved one. Or how about Guantanamo Bay? Where they would have prisoners blind folded and naked? Yeah, I see your point now, we would never do anything so cruel.

Kelly Campbell or judge that I'm a christian or not.

Dave Gier Kelly, Kelly, Kelly where did we go wrong with you? America- GOOD! Taliban-BAD! Obama-WRONG!GOD-GOOD! America is a country of liberties, yes, wrong though you are, I will fight for your right to express yourself.Death is a fact of war. Our Marines pissed on dead bodies, They cut of our guys heads! How much time ya got, I could go on and on!!

Kelly Campbell Oh Mr Gier, I know you have alot more! haha I'm just saying Mr. Russ made a point that American Soliders would never do such a thing. I just showed him he wrong with that comment.

Dave Gier American military is not perfect, but the best military force in the world! And the American President should not apologize to anyone!!!

Kelly Campbell Well if he wants to keep peace, he sure will. Any of the Presidents will. It's called being the bigger man :)

Dave Gier Let me put it another way, The American President apologizes to NO ONE!! It's a sign of weakness!

Kelly Campbell It is and isn't.

Dave Gier Why do I always get into these deep political arguments with my daughters friends? Oh yeah, trying to set them straight!

Kelly Campbell Haha, oh you do? I bet I'm the worst. :P

Dave Gier close!;~)

Kelly Campbell I take pride in that :) haha I'm a stubborn one, ask Shan. So you better bring out your polticial A-game!

Shannon Rose Gier You DO seem to have a knack for arguing with my friends over politics...

Dave Gier At least we raised you right, Bun-Bun!!

Alison Bryant Johnson I like ur spunk! But get ur head on straight. I used to be young and silly too. Cmon babe ill take u to the gun range. U can blow off some of that youthful ignorance!

Kelly Campbell haha You can call me silly, I'm doin' just fine! :) Thanks though for supporting my opinion, I appreciate it! :)

Alison Bryant Johnson I have socks older than you lol! That gives me clout!! I love a good fiery discussion! I used to be a dirty hippy dead head. Now im a clean...occasionally dirty conservative biker chick. Time heals babe lol.

Donald Elliott Russ You seem a little confused, Kelly. You say that messages are smuggled into domestic American prisons. So what?

When the infallible and most holy Qur’an was used to smuggle messages into the war prisoners, the senders desecrated the infallible and most holy Qur’an and the infallible and most holy Qur’an had to be confiscated for that reason alone. And just as jailers at domestic American prisons attempt to control contraband, so too do the guards of war prisoners. But in this case it was more than that: The infallible and most holy Qur’an was blemished with foul messages of religious incitement that are contrary to the “religion of peace” according to apologists such as yourself.

You’re indignant about having your Christian perspective challenged while at the same time you claim that your Christian values have judged the handling of this affair a “bad call”. With blind faith in moral equivalence you continue, “People need to get their noses out of the air. No wonder other nations don't like us. lol I just believe as a Christian this could be handled in a completely, more respectful manner. It was just a bad call on our part.”

How? How could it have been handled in a completely more respectful manner? Intercepting contraband was correct. Removing copies of the infallible and most holy Qur’an that had been mutilated was correct. Discarding them was a mistake that was not policy and was not sanctioned. (Neither was the pissing.) Immediately upon discovery the base commander apologized. The next day the Secretary of Defense apologized. The President of the United States apologized. Then the President apologized a second time.

Alison is correct about the cultural significance of all these apologies. Muslims apologize only to God, not to people and certainly not to infidels. When you and the president apologize to Muslims, you are imposing a Christian value on the significance of the act. You are failing to appreciate the Muslim perspective. They do indeed see an infidel apology as evidence of weakness. You don’t understand that because you are culturally narrow-minded and believe that they should appreciate an apology. They don’t. That is not their culture.

Muslims perceive infidel apologies as their due and as validation of their superiority. Freedom of religion is a western value, and not their value. The infallible and most holy Qur’an teaches that it is the natural order of things that infidels should fawn and grovel. This is not Christian propaganda; it is Islamic teaching. Read the infallible and most holy Qur’an for yourself: http://pxxq.com/AllahuAkbar.htm

Kelly Campbell Allison: I'm for sure not a hippy :P

Mr Ross: I appreciate your background checking and supporting your opinion. It was your point of making: "American soldiers do not behave like that and anyone who thinks they do has been brainwashed by domestic America-haters." it was wrong. American Soldiers have done bad also, like I stated above.

Alison Bryant Johnson Well thank you Dave for allowing us to have a forum all over ur wall

Kelly Campbell I think he enjoyed it.

Donald Elliott Russ In memory of Andrew Breitbart: What should we have done in Afghanistan after the government there suborned the murders of some three thousand innocent Americans on 9/11? I say we should have rained-down a great terror that killed thirty thousand. We would have killed many Taliban and a few al Queda. But most killed would be collateral damage – not quite innocent – which would have been useful as an example and as a precaution. We would have crossed cultures and communicated to them in a language they understand.

There would have been (brief) international outrage tempered by the ghastly and unprovoked assault (worse than Pearl Harbor) to which we were reacting. And probably, the Commander-in-Chief would not be re-elected. But it would have ushered in an era of peace that would have lasted a generation, maybe longer.

Instead we do counter-insurgency. In Vietnam we called it “winning the hearts and minds”. This has a naive appeal to people ignorant of history. It is doomed. War is a tough business. We can build a hundred miles of irrigation canals in Marja as a matter of policy and no one notices. Renegade Marines take a leak and it is all young, broad-minded Americans who fancy themselves good Christians can talk about.

Sharia (Islamic law) is plain: Infidels are less than Muslims and Muslim women are less than Muslim men. Our enemy routinely slaughters innocents as a tactic. Even legitimate Islamists in Saudi Arabia and Iran institutionalize barbaric cruelty. And yet many of us make excuses for them.

“Moral Equivalence” is the sloppy thinking that assumes we are no better than they are, or even that any moral judgment is subjective. It is intellectually lazy because knowledgeable, informed people can readily make these distinctions. Consequently it is characteristic of young people. We are better than they are. Christianity is the true religion of peace. Islam is poison and good Muslims are bad people.

And our soldiers are morally superior to our enemies. Anyone who does not understand that, or who relies on isolated anecdotes to make a contrary case, is simply ill-informed. Indeed, our soldiers are morally superior to the general American population. No soldier can advance in our military without embracing the Seven Army Values. Every soldier knows what they are and tries to live up to each of them. Some fail and must leave our military and may be superior citizens – just not quite good enough to be an American Warrior.

Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity and Personal Courage. Those are the institutional goals of the United States Army.

A twenty-something who says we are no better than they may be excused. But still it is insult. And false.

Bonnie Bard Sauerbier No one is excused for age.

Friday, March 2, 2012

Rob Curcio Kelly is just another lost youth that has been molded by the myopic, fantasy based utopians here in our current weak and shameful culture. Your over verbose argument can be boiled down to this miss Rose Colored glasses. Out of the entire percentages of people on this planet, 98% are sheep, 1% are wolves and 1% are shepherds. You and Obama and his ilk are sheep. Muslim extremists are wolves. Those soldiers that you so quickly judged, are the shepherds. They are the ones risking their lives day in and day out so people like Obama and yourself can play your little fantasy games of utopia here on Earth. Hopefully you will awaken to reality one day. Apologizing to "evil" only excites its passion to overcome you. If it gets far enough, it will be you that is having your head sawn off with a dull knife on TV by the very demons that that idiot Obama suckles at. Enjoy your freedom to claim Christianity. It was won at a tremendous cost. None born by the likes of that spineless lump of tripe, Obama.

Bradley Smith burning the Holy Quran is the absolute most offensive thing a person could possibly do in regards to Islam. I admire an apology and an attempt at smoothing over the situation without firing a gun.

Rob Curcio Wise up Bradley. Shots were fired. Americans died. Over a book. It's just a book. I don't kill people for burning bibles. You're an idiot.

Bradley Smith big words. What the Bible means to Christians and what the Holy Quran means to Muslims are two very different things. In Christianity, Jesus is the living word. In Islam, God met Muhammad and told him "recite" and thus the Quran was born. Muhammad was the messenger who brought the words of God to the people. The Quran is regarded as God's instructions for living to the world. So maybe you wouldn't kill someone for burning Bibles, I wouldn't either. But would you kill someone for burning Jesus? As for Jesus being the living word of God, that living word commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves, to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us.

Dave Gier Hi Brad, I've been wondering where you were. Killing an American over senseless BS is the MOST OFFENSIVE thing you could possibly do to USA. You young uns need to get out, wake up and realize there is no place on this earth that is better to live. War is a necessity to preserve it. Islam is wrong on so many fronts. Sharia, jihad, need i expound? I welcome and respect all comments on this forum. My goal is to educate the misinformed.

Bradley Smith all in all. It was unnecessary to on the United States' part insult Islam, and it was unnecessary on their part to react in violence. But it is the president's job to promote peace and not let small, unnecessary situations like this one grow into anything larger. Of course, if our soldiers weren't over there to begin with, this wouldn't be an issue and America would be better off for it.

Donald Elliott Russ The United States insulted Islam? That is a lie. The Korans were confiscated for valid reasons. They were discarded inadvertently. There was no insult.

Then you say it was unnecessary for them to react with violence which betrays your misunderstanding of who they are, what they want and how they intend to get it. You are foolish to fault a snake for being a snake and you are doubly foolish to depend on it.

Then you rewrite history. We ARE there, and for just reason. Maybe they should not have hijacked our planes and flown them into our buildings.

And even though you claim to understand Islam better than Muslims do, you don’t even understand your own religion. “Render unto Caesar…” contemplates that the citizenry can forgive because a just state will maintain social order. ISAF soldiers are the vehicle of that justice that enables that forgiveness.

And stupidly you claim that the President’s job is to promote peace. That is not his job. If you lack even that understanding then foreign policy is not your bag. Go write a folk song.

Bradley Smith Dave, I've missed these conversations, I hope you're doing well. I'm currently writing to you from the Sultanate of Oman where I am participating in a semester-long study abroad program focused on Christian-Muslim relations. I don't get offended at things, but please know that I am AWAKE and I AM getting out into the world. I know what I'm talking about here. I know you're older and wiser, but allow me some credit for what I have to say because it doesn't come out of ignorance. As for your comment about Sharia and Jihad, I would be happy to have a conversation with you later, as in NOT in the middle of an argument on your wall. I would be happy to message you. You would benefit from knowing more about what Islam actually is, not what the media tries to tell you that it is. The media has a tendency to lie to the American people, promoting emotional response rather than delivering actual fact and truth in their reporting. That's EVERY media that reports on this sort of thing. Truth is, the percentage of Muslims that are actually extremists is something like .03%. Not even an entire percentage. Muslims, overall, are peace-loving, caring people and in no way hate America. I've felt more love here from the Muslims I've met than I often feel in Christian churches, if that says anything. As an illustration, I went to an Oman soccer game two days ago, Oman won and qualified for the world cup. Afterwards, the Omanis celebrating in the streets came up and asked if they could take pictures with our group and they thanked us heartily for our support. Our AMERICAN support. So, that said, I invite you to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim in Afghanistan in this situation and ask yourself "what would I be feeling of Americans insulted my religion?" I'm not stupid, I know the situation in the middle-east, and I happen to fall on the side of peace, whatever that looks like. In this case, peace means Obama apologizing for the US insulting Islam. It takes a bigger man to apologize than it does to fire a gun. That's all I have to say.

Bradley Smith I've written several folk songs. It happens to be my favorite genre of music. And I'm not insulted by your words.

Bradley Smith confiscated for valid reasons but then someone screwed up and they got burned. That, whether intended or not, IS an insult. And okay, it's not the presidents ONLY job to promote peace, but it's a part of his job. Peaceful relations with other nations is in the best interest of the United States, and it IS the presidents' job to make the calls and do what is in the best interest of our nation. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference if he apologized or not, but I'm glad he did. It shows he has the guts to admit that the US may have screwed up instead of ignoring it and pretending like we're always in the right. If you can explain that it was a misunderstanding, then peaceful dialogue in the future, and beneficial trade agreements and negotiations, I might add, can be accomplished. All I'm saying is that I'm glad President Obama apologized, I think it shows character.

Bradley Smith I don't claim to know more about Islam than Muslims do- don't put words in my mouth. I don't know all that much, that's why I'm in the middle-east right now STUDYING IT. So that I CAN learn more. Because I'm interested.

Suzette Strauss MAN! OH MAN! I sure wish this conversation took place on my wall so that MY friends could chime in! I'd be interested in knowing what Tom Grieco Tracy Tracy L York David Strauss and Brian McKay would say about this!

Rob Curcio Gee Bradley, I sure hope you don't get beheaded. Do us a favor. Stay over there.

Bradley Smith you know, I would love to. And I would love for all of you to have this same experience. You don't know me, don't act like you do.

Dave Gier What hath I wrought?? I made a simple statement of opinion that exploded into an amazing diatribe. Stimulating conversation, love it, but guys, and girls, you are all my friends lets remain civil to each other. Brad, Kelly You are both young with your whole lives ahead of you, learn from us elders, we've been there. Rob, Alison, Suzette Don although we don't agree, their opinions were paid for with the same blood ours was. That being said, No one is going to change my opinion.

Dave Gier BUT, let's keep it going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rob Curcio Dear God. Someone actually just posted that " Obama has guts and character". LMAO!!! He is the most gutless, characterless president to ever disgrace the title of Commander In Chief. He apologized because he is a coward and an appeaser. He has no character. He's a puppet. He's never made a decision in his life. I've never read anything so ridiculous in my life. How sad that the youth of this nation is so lost and brainwashed by these frauds and snake oil salesmen. It's a tragedy that our brave men and women are dying for these kinds of fools. What a crime.

Kelly Campbell You may not like Obama, but he's our President. Please don't call him an idiot, shows how uneducated you are, because all you can use as an argument is profanity. Please use respect. It's common courtesy.

Dave Gier Respect the office, not the man!

Kelly Campbell I don't know who you learn from, but I was always taught to respect everyone, even if you don't like them. It's common courtesy. I'm not telling you to "kiss his ass", but to be respectful and stop calling him an idiot. I mean he must not be an idiot, because he did get through many years of schooling, I would think an idiot can't even do that.

Kelly Campbell I won't listen to anyone that uses profanity towards the President, their argument is not worth listening to. I will be more willing to sit down with someone that will respectfully tell me their views.

Rob Curcio Obama is an idiot, a coward, a perpetual failure and a danger to freedom and liberty. He deserves no such courtesy. He may be your president but he is not mine. He is a Person of no character, no backbone and has no usable skill at anything but stuffing my money into the pockets of thieves and greedy scumbags in order to guarantee his future paychecks once he is finished raping our nation. He has no respect for unborn life and acquiesces to evil at every turn. He says one thing and then does quite another. Like betray our troops. Sadly, there are many of you brainwashed drones stumbling about that think yourselves to be superior to others because you are adept at regurgitating textbook material, to some worthless socialist college professor. You self aggrandizing college elitists are a dime a dozen and you have no practical or usable knowledge. You will fail miserably in the real world. Especially the one that "your" president is about to leave for you. I find your pseudo intellect to be boring and trite.

When I am about to relieve myself of solid waste, I have a phrase I use to announce my ensuing bowel movement.

"I gotta go drop the Obama's off at the pool."

Dave Gier Kelly, Brad it's good that you are politically aware. So many youth of today don't know Obama from Osama (wait a minute, I don't either.). Religious freedom as well as political freedom is what this country was founded on. You don't know what it's like to have a good President. Yes they all care about our country, it's what they do about it that counts. Obama has apologized to more world leaders than all previous combined. The USA is not and should not be the worlds caretaker. But, when our interests are compromised, Then we have to show our might, unhindered!! Get in get it done, get out, SIMPLE. People will die, an ugly fact of war. We have been attacked on our soil, this can never happen again. All precautions must be taken to prevent that.

Bradley Smith apologizing to smooth over a screw up and work towards peace (instead of war) is in the best interest of the United States- it's the president's job to do things and make the calls that are in the best interest of the United States. Plain and simple. The only thing that war does is get alot of Americans killed- oh, and we spend a quarter of a trillion dollars on it every year, and the profit from that is 25% - is the US government sending our troops out to fight for our freedom? Or is the US government wasting the lives of our soldiers to make alot of money from the military industrial complex?

Bradley Smith Well, everyone- it's been a good time, but I have a paper to write on Jihad and a big Arabic test at the end of the week. Rob- I appreciate your defensive words, but if you can't debate without calling the opposing party stupid, then you should give up on debating. I can't take you seriously and your words haven't been worth my time. Donald - I appreciate your wisdom and time. Please know that I sincerely respect you despite our differences. Dave- As always, it was wonderful to debate with you. I love this relationship we have, and my respect for you has only grown with time. For example, when we first met, you were just "Shannon's cool dad", but now you're "Dave, the guy I talk politics with and he respects my opinions and side and he's really cool and I respect him". So, as always, it's been a good discussion. I feel, at this point, that I need to turn in. It is my religious conviction to "Love my neighbor as myself" to "Love even my enemies" to "turn the other cheek" and to "pray for those who persecute me" - those are the words of Jesus, my example for living. Please don't let the actions of a handful of Arab men dictate your view of the entire Muslim world. Plain and simple, Christians and Muslims coexist and work together peacefully in every country of the world. The people who won't except that are Islamist terrorists, who most Muslims wouldn't say are real Muslims because their extremist views stray from Quranic teachings- and Christians, like you guys, who won't accept even the thought of peace because you've allowed a few terrorists to decide your opinion of an entire religious group. A religious group as diverse as the world Christian population.

Dave Gier Thanks Brad, get to work. Still waitin' on that folksong!

Taylor Strauss Youth is not an excuse for stupidity. I'm young and know better than these kids, and have many friends who do too. I understand that we may be impressionable at our young age because we don't have much experience in this world just yet, but we have to take it upon ourselves to become educated on foreign affairs and political issues for ourselves rather than listen to the extreme liberal agendas that are shoved down our throats by our professors and peers.

This Kelly girl says not to call Obama an idiot but when people called Bush an idiot it was okay? Looks like a double standard to me! Bush didn't make our country look stupid by bowing to other world leaders and apologizing for things that don't need apologies - let's go back to that idiot concept, shall we? And if we're talking about idiots not being able to complete schooling, i'd like to introduce her to a few people i know...

On another note, I don't know how Bradley could possibly say that if we weren't over there that this wouldn't be an issue and that we'd be better off when he also later says that it is our president's job to promote peace. It is BECAUSE of our promise to help keep the peace that we're over there. Does he believe that the dictators and terrorists in the middle-east are peaceful? He says he's there STUDYING christian-muslim relations, which is essentially what is what we have between the US and the Middle East, one would think he would know better; That is simply not the case. And he says that burning the Qur'an is the most offensive thing to those who follow Islam however I think it's safe to say that Christians would be extremely offended if they saw the bible being burned. Yet, Muslims can kill Americans in response to the burning of their holy book and WE apologize but if it were the other way around I'm SURE things would not be handled the same way.

Interestingly enough, an Iranian commander responded to this event saying, "Nothing but burning the White House can relieve the wound of us, the Muslims, caused by the Burning of Quran in the US. Their apology can be accepted only by hanging their commanders; hanging their commanders means an apology". Sounds peaceful! Bradley's right, we should just leave them alone. Then when they DO try to burn down the White House we can reflect on how we kept the peace in having retreated.

After reading things like this, I'm starting to think Michael Savage was right when he said that "liberalism is a mental disorder"!!!!